Subject: Israel – The Throwback

The change in Turkey behaviour toward israel is the biggest shock for israelies.
Turkey was our favourite. more than 10% of our population had travelled to turkey each year!!
Turkey was an example and hope for the world (as we saw it). now its all over.
israeli majority thoughts:
The goal for turkey is clearer than ever. they want to declare a war on israel, they will not rest until they will find the way to make it happen.
I hope we are wrong. turkey is really a key-player (or was...).

"No, ofcourse not. more death more hate and more frustration.
do you think thers another way to defend our familys? please advice."

well, this is the first time I read this kind of nuance in an israeli post. Nice experience. Honest answer: no I don't. But I know it is possible. Israel isn't the first nation who has to deal with terrorists with a supposed wide popular support.
Israel's plan was to delegitimise hamas' rule, and they weren't alone in this. So in this, not only israel is to blame in this, from where I am standing. On the other hand, when israel wanted to speed up the process(?)/drive up the pressure by means of the wall and later on the gaza war, (some in) europe was amost the foremost to disprove the actions. Some countries showed totally different media reports than others (the difference with the netherlands during the gaza war was striking!). This point was made before, Europe had a very ambigue standpoint in this. Nobody really knows how to deal with it, but a lot of people feel this is not the way to do it.

"And do you have those numbers of goods per person?
something like a ton a year (food+aid). but I am not saying life is luxury there, I just saying that israel main goal is to make life better in Gaza (yes, can you believe what Im saying??) and HAMAS wants the other way around. you must understand: what will happen if life in gaza will be good as in the west-bank? will the HAMAS be stronger or weaker? he wants us out! two nations for two countries is the worst thing that can happen to HAMAS. they will not let their people live normal life making them lose the world attention. "

I have reasons to doubt it. The wall is described (even on CNN, so quite openly) as a way to turn the population of gaza against hamas, by putting more and more pressure on their lives. The message that israel is actually trying to help gaza goes against this, and goes against all reports coming out of that region (hence the gaza report of the UN, I mentioned above).
I don't agree with the POV of hamas, and I understand israels sentiment about them, but there must be different, more elegant ways of dealing with them. I don't understand why they don't go into that direction.

IMO, hamas doesn't lose support inside gaza, because people are left with no choice. There is nowhere to run, and no safety to organise resistance against them. The gaza gettho is doing exactly the opposite as proposed (but maybe the exact this as intended).
Interviews and reports from within gaza shows that hamas has support from people within their party, who get help, but people outside their little group don't support hamas at all (some already hinted at such corruption). But if the goal of the wall and the blockade to break the support of hamas, what more can israel and the rest of the world who agree with silent acceptance expect more of this strategy? I don't see how a continued blockade will chance much to this situation.
The population of gaza is cornered and so got israel. However, they are the only ones holding the keys.

Im not sure I understand, so I will ask it differently:
How you fight an enemy that use his civilians as human-shield? I will show the progress:
1. israel army is out of gaza.
2. gaza is firing rockets on cities (dozens a day)
3. israel cry for the world to help - no one cares.
4. israel gets inside to find those who fire rockets.
5. those HAMAS-fighters uses civilian clothes, and fighting from schools and hospital (their leaders bunker was in a hospital).
6. you cant win, no matter what will happen.
7. you get out, rockets are back.

I know. But both are non-solutions. Chose the one with the least violence and the most prospect of a future, imo.


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The goal for turkey is clearer than ever. they want to declare a war on israel

I'm very confident that they don't. I'd imagine they're severely pissed at you at the moment and that certain parts of their population feel that way but they'd never go against the wishes of the european union. They've far too much to lose.

A question. Do you think Israels treatment of Gaza is helping the situation? Because as much as you're trying to contain terrorists, are you not creating more by bombing the s**t out of them?

and i must to say that;

TURKEY GOVERNMENT CAN WANT TO BE A MIDDLE EAST COUNTRY!
BUT OUR PUBLIC NEVER WANT!
WE WANT TO BE MORE MODERNIZE!
WE WANT TO BE A EUROPEAN!
WE ARE NOT BIGOT!

Im sure that if there was a simple solution we would have use it already.
But I will conclude the discussion with that: Israel has no keys, the keys to solution are in HAMAS+the world. as long as the world will be anti-israeli without checking the facts or advising normal alternatives, no flexiblity will come from the HAMAS.
If the HAMAS will see that the world isnt buying his new-propoganda, they will get to a dead-end. this will make the change.only than they will understand that piece is the only solution. their people will not let them go other ways.
GOOD AND NORMAL LIFE IN GAZA WILL BRING PIECE. STOPPING THE ROCKETS AND THE ARMAMENT AND REPLACING IT WITH WORK AND PROGRESS WILL BRING PIECE. THE QUESTION IS HOW? THIS IS A CONTRAST TO HAMAS GOALS.

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of course so hamas should stop its attack and israel too

well, look at it this way: hamas is a dumb force of nature: pure human hatred. You want to get rid of it, but you can't kill all the civilians as well. Waiting for hamas to stop by itself is much like waiting for hell to freeze over. Waiting or wanting for hamas to change is stupid and pointless.
Any action taken with this goal in mind is pointless as well.

Israel does hold the keys, imo, because they are the only one of the two within this deadlock who can make a choice (because they're not a dumb force of nature). So, naturally, they can choose to take a different course of action and get out of this deadlock.
How israel can accomplish this, is a different question and must be solved seperately.

Do you think Israels treatment of Gaza is helping the situation? Because as much as you're trying to contain terrorists, are you not creating more by bombing the s**t out of them?

There isnt any military solution, no chance for that.
its self-defence for avoiding rockets, or avoiding entrance of bigger rockets for firing them in the future.

so, basicly, "it isn't a solution, but a containment measure" But it doesn't seem to be working (by itself or otherwise), no?

For now we are dealing only with defence (short term solution)
the long-term solution must be piece.
it will only start when both sides will acknowledge each other. too much hate and dis-respect for that to happen soon.

you didnt really thought that we will find an answer? I believe that we both hope for the same.
No israeli enjoys another human suffering (ok, maybe 95% - there are fanatics in every country).




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well, that seems to be the thing the rest of the world sees, but israelis don't seem to:

bombing someone and forcing him/her to live on rubble doens't make someone very peace minded.

And like I said: despite what israel claims and what they tell their population, not enough goods enter palestine to reach acceptable living conditions.

Further, and this is an aspect that hasn't been mentioned: Lieberman, israels minister of foreign affairs (and there are few like minded in the government/army)
They doesn't seem that peace minded. I know they are kinda controversial within israel as well. Do you think they have peace on his mind when they want this strategy? Lieberman was talking about 'driving them into the sea' after all...

"No israeli enjoys another human suffering (ok, maybe 95% - there are fanatics in every country)."
Well, maybe a few of the sad examples of human beings that passed the revue here did, but I believe you don't.
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you missed the point completely.
most answers to that are in my previous threads.
the goals shown by you are not really the israeli-goals.
lieberman quote - is not accepted by 90% of the israel population.

bombing someone and forcing him/her to live on rubble doens't make someone very peace minded.


that sentence is a tough one. if you still believe that, it means I wasted my time. Im sorry for that.
saying to someone that he is killing for fun or for persuasion is like blaming him to be a murderer.
you couldnt be more wrong. I will let you believe that in the same situation (rocket-fire from houses) you could find another way to protect your family.
I will do better than that - I will pray for you that you wont get there.

goodnight.

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Guys, I see that you believe that there can be solution,,, that is good, I can just sadly say that I dont believe :-(.
IMHO Israel made very bad solution at the past and now there will never be peace :-( till one nation will be totally eliminated (but then there also are other nations from neighbours states....).

All debate about how to make "now" peace here is bad question, because Israel have much more territory and Palestine is really damage and life there is poor. Sense of life of people living there is just die for "country", because the only thing what can they do in such a poor country, is fighting, they are learning this from child age and they are learing and see just wars for years, so that is all what they can do now.

I dont belive, that at current conditions can there be peace, and that is the reason why Hamas is so ugly "terrorists" group.


To understand my POV and my english I will say example.
There never could be a real peace in USA with Indians, after US forces close them into "reservation".
Peace could be achieve sooner, but after destroying them and putting them to reservation, I dont believe that something like real peace can be achieved. Israel and Palestine is same ....
As Indians were after years assimilated, Israel maybe hope in same way..... but this will be harder.