Subject: »9200 managers in Sokker!

Hello, I just got here after several years. I remember when our league forums were active and full of banter. Now even First League is dead. As I just got back in, few things on top of my head, as to how are we in this situation and what could be done.

1/ Interface - maybe for new users its simpler, but to me, coming back after years, its all a bit confusing, but I hope I will get a hang of it
2/ economics - the game feels unplayable for new users - you need to focus on training and raising money, which you have lack of in the beggining, as I just got 300.000 Euros, which with very inflated market does not get you far and you will have to dedicate months/years, to get anything going
3/ technology - back in the day I started with this game, as there was nothing else to do - gaming PC was worth a fortune, games were not that good or flashy, consoles were not really a common thing (maybe 1 of 5 in the school had some at home), phones did not really run games smoothly nor anything good. The though of managing your team on your PC from home, school, work, on the bus, anywhere - while it looked also fairly good and with active community - this was the genius behind it . Easy, simple and cheap solution how to access a lot of fun for basically free. You even could play if you had no PC at all, just log once a week at school/work/some PC coffee or something and you were all set.

If you look at those things, realistically, I will judge first from my own situation. Now I got home 2 laptops, gaming PC, gaming console and my phone runs anything I could ever want. All of those things were fairly cheap, considering inflation and how much gaming PC was back then, but mainly it all offers INSTANT results, instant fun, engaging, I have free time and can right now do something fun about it, does not matter if I sit on my toilet or just got home from work. What does Sokker exactly offer you? Nowadays. Every browser game I played back in the day is now basically dead (I re-loged to maybe 10 different browser games I played), and all of them are on the brink of death. Their problem is - very poor marketing - cant compete with regular PC/Console/Mobile games, which are just more fun and fairly similarly accessible. I play PUBG on my freakish phone for free, while talking with my buddies while doing so. What is for regular gamer who wants to have fun more engaging? That or logging there once a week to check result and how went training session?

This game was (I dont know if still is) great, but to me it feels like the days of browser gaming are numbered. If they want success, make it mobile app, you cant hope to keep players engaged if they have to compete with someone who has almost 20 years behind him. Its just demotivating, slow, not very fun. The market for players and your targets as a developer is very different from when this game launched. They simply choose not to adapt.

What could work? Hard question for the developers. BTW Wheres Greg?

1/ I would implement some activity based incentives (rewards after time periods online, add quests, missions, whatever that gives you the feeling of accomplishment and that you are indeed progressing faster than every quarter of a year.
2/ Add board interaction - make the game analyze your chances of advancing/relegation and so on, set expectations, set rewards based on how you do. Make it possible to ask for things, to make the progress and bridge the gap between dinosaurs over here (know of guys with hundreds of millions in their bank, doing nothing). Let them expand your stadium, improve facilities, whatever.
3/ Invest into marketing - I have not seen any AD for Sokker for over maybe a decade, despite playing and buying every football manager game out there for years and my search history being filled with football managers stuff.

To me it feels like this game has not changed since my elementary school days and I got today very emotional seeing that my country, which had amazing fanbase, has own page in native language with statistics and guides and so on, had dedicated people, who made football tourneys and meetings in real life to just vanish. Just now reading some old forums I was part of and seeing beside 90% of the names (del) really got to me.

Make the game better, change what you aim at, the target audience of this game has so many options to choose from that I cant see a reason, why my 15yo me, living in this current time, would choose to play this over anything I currently do and most kids do. I am here for a hour and already feel like I have nothing to do for a week. Thats not how gaming works nowadays.

Those were my few cents, I really hope this community stays put. Seeing guys like Sviktorov, who manager our NT back then, is great, but the issue as someone is talking here - its not about design, its about lack of features, engagement. You can change the packaging all you want, but if the contents are the same, it wont make a difference.
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Yes, the biggest issue is that it’s a 2004-2010 game trying to work the same way in 2023. You can’t bring modern users to such game, on the other hand you can’t really modify it to be engagin according to modern standards.

Imo it should be simply perfected and targeted for 30yo+ users who want a smooth, nice old-type game, because they wont be able to make it appealing to under20 users. You can think of quests or other side-activities, but the core game will always be slow-paced. I also think that it would be much, much easier if they created a new server, with every team starting from zero.

Agreed. Basically restarting the game would keep new players much more engaged, while the experienced ones would still have an advantage, as they would know how to operate the tactical side of the game, transfers, how to train, when to focus on certain things and so on. So their knowledge would not be lost in vain.

It could also be a double edged sword, as a lots of them would lose their interest with their teams being gone, or competition being gone, as someone would stay, someone would flee, or just start new server and give them option to operate two teams (you can keep this tight knit group on the oldschool one, but also get them to play from the start), which may help them transition and not quit on the game.

This thing alone could save the game. My incentives were basically about the fact that new players realistically cant compete, and if I look at the game and know to ever achieve something, its years worth of commitment, I wont bother. In my league where I today start is a guy playing since 2015 with one player having double the value as my whole squad.. There is nothing I can do to beat it. Anytime soon. So there is no incentive for me to do anything and most new players will feel the same if they take look around. So some little "side goals" to keep track of , but also pump money into those teams so they can compete with the inflated economics. But.. yes.. new server and fresh start would solve all of this in an instant. Maybe a lot of old school guns would even return, as we all have contacts on some of our long gone friends.
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You are wrong about that. It's still relatively easy to make a lot of money in short term. You can soon have same level trainers as the topteams and by finding some supertalented youngsters who are just not good enough to be noticed you will create soon good money. You can be the winner with the inflated economy too. Proof talent of trained players and invest in trainers and you will have a nice team soon!

I remember back then how a lot of teams went basically under because they could not keep up with the costs or made bad purchases. Its a way, but basically the only one and very, very, very long. How exactly does new manager know about it? How exactly is it any fun to him? The way "you can use this system too" does not mean its fun to start that way. We are talking about dying game, not the fact that its impossible. Of course you can do it. But you will need to scout the transfer market very often, spend here a lot of time to make those bargains, get very lucky with your trainers and it will still take several seasons just so you can do what? Get one good player?

We had this "mentor" program in our country maybe since 2010? Everyone was taught how to train players, what to buy, what not to, which trainers, which wages are good and what your balance should look like for certain steps along the way, yet, those players still quit. Maybe this way of playing isnt the best to sustain the game?

Ah someone finally said it.
Yes, personally I think the best way to save this game is to take it offline for a couple of months, fix the many issues and then relaunch with everyone starting from zero. It needs a rebrand and an app.

You started once too, with same weapons, same rules, same TL, same system of trainers, ... And you made it. The game is made for a "certain type" of people, not for those who want instant gratification.

I made it, yes, but I was here because of the community, which is not present now. I played several years bottom feeders with corner tactic to eliminate any risk of injury and just accumulated money. I dont think I was managing any team or doing good job. I just enjoyed the banter around forums, loved the NT action and wanted my wonderkids pop every week. But was the gameplay fun? Did I enjoy matches? Had I any ambition? Neither of them.

The "for certain type" of people is exactly why this game will be offline in two years time. You need to adapt in time and because some "strategy" to generate money there is, does not mean new players enjoy it and will stick with it for years to form a competitive side.

The only thing I notice is that people are saying for 12 years now already the game is dying soon :-p. Just have fun and enjoy!

Marketing is everything if you are willing to invest into it.

No, marketing is not everything, not when you have less than 0.1% registered users staying long-term in the game, it would be a total waste of money. Moreover one of the owners works in marketing, so they really don't need your help with that [or your constant poor attempts at advertising crap on this forum].

The only thing I notice is that people are saying for 12 years now already the game is dying soon :-p. Just have fun and enjoy!

Well dying can be a wide term in this context ;-)

This game had over 80k users and was booming at one point, now we're at 7k users, so less than 10%. It's not dead and it probably won't die 100% for a long time because it is still paying for itself and bringing profits so there's not point in shutting it down.

On the other hand from what I understand the original owner were not willing to invest money into re-writing the code and the game would shut down if the new owners/investors didn't pay for that, so it's probably not THAT profitable of a business since they didn't want a long-term investment which would break even after x or xx years.

You started once too, with same weapons, same rules, same TL, same system of trainers, ... And you made it. The game is made for a "certain type" of people, not for those who want instant gratification.

I agree with Dex on that.

If you know how you can make money and are willing to do that - yeah, you can make it.

But I agree with Dee that is NOT how the game was originally intended to work and for most possible users it is simply not fun - and when they try to play it the fun way, their teams are simply weak and not progressing fast/at all. Look at many countries, their top leagues still have most teams playing for less than 70, often less than 60 because they don't know/don't want to play the "profitable way".

Another problem of this game: the countries/leagues are too weak or too strong.
In some countries you're getting demolished after going 1 league up since start and you need years before you can reach even 4th level.
In some countries there is no real competition, because there are only 1 or 2, sometimes 3 decent, well run team and the rest is just running in circles using money from sponsors and tickets.
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I guess you haven't heard about Earth’s Best Coffee that comes from the Freezer?

I wonder how many of these "long term partners" his firm "worked with" were made up, since he obviously never worked for Sokker, yet he wrote that on the website



Don't know why but I doubt that Microsoft or Amazon decided to use his company
(edited)

What dex and you are saying is important. Everyone is playing the game differently and is enjoying other parts of the game. A lot of managers are piling up cash by training young supertalents, but in his essence it's boring too. Explanation is that the evolution is nice and a lot of "green" on thursday is nice. In essence all the work is done with the buying of the player. Rest is "nonsense" too, to be a bit harsh. Thanks to SA for example, you know when your players will pop with what amount of training. That kind of managers are avoiding to combine results and training because they want fixed results, they want to know the result of their actions and in that way they come closest to what they want. Is it fun to go for 500 M Euro if you have already 250 M Euro? If it's fun for them, it's ok!

Well, in fact sokker is life. Offcourse it's meant to play the game in a way that you generate money and get results at the same time and that's possible too, but it's a huge challenge. It means in some cases you have to become champion with 1 point in advance instead of crushing everyone with 15points. It means buying a cheap trainee where no one sees the potential and make millions on him instead of buying an obvious star. It means investing a stadium and trainers at the moment it's very tempting to buy that striker that will demolish every defence in your league, it means staying away from buying trainers if there will be a marginal difference with the trainers you have, it means opening a youthschool and not be sentimental about the products, ... If you only train youngsters, you are missing all these choices and challenges too, ...

You can give every manager the same guidance and the result will always be very different and that's the challenge of sokker. There can happen a lot in sokker between matches, a lot can go wrong in trying to get coaches, trainees, ... If dex was a part of a community that was participating and open to new users, only a few will make it to the top and make the right decisions to stay at the top and make consequently the right decisions. Others will get the same explanation but will ruin it because of impulsivity, impatience or just wrong decisions. That's not bad. Update the rules so that they are correct and everyone will get the same chances. A lot of the starters will be destined to fail or will be destined to "turn in circles", just as in real life.

A lot of managers will come on the website and will have difficulties to spend the energy in the game and will quit within the first hour. It's not sokker's fault. you can see it at your job too. A lot of people want instant gratification and want to be pleased instantly. In sokker you can say they want to belong to the best immediately and play with the big guns. It's not working that way in life, not here, ...

Personally I get gratification in building the team. I'm playing for less than three seasons with the team and I see teams in the highest division who get less revenue than me, have trainees who are trained less and are worse and have a lot more costs. It's fun to know I'm going after them. They are fucked but they just don't know yet ;-). The building of the team, that's why I'm here.

Not a lot of people are enjoying musea, "difficult" culture, but that doesn't mean it will go away or culture has to adapt to modern society. It has his value too in his present form and in the form it has always been... Just like sokker. It's just not for the big mass.

I agree with you on the part that everyone has different preference and play-style, so if someone likes this style of play, it certainly should be a viable way how to play the game. Nothing against that. On the other hand, as you stated a lot of those things you talk about, need extra software, plugin, some kind of assistance and extra steps. That player needs to reach the forums, needs to read up on it, then choose what will be the most benefiting for him and then learn how to work with it. Thats a lot of extra steps just so you can be a bit more efficient in your strategy. Why all this hustle for newcomers? Why in almost 20 years, isn't tracking of players talent feature within the game? Why do guys like BlueZero, who made website for CZ/SK community, have to code their own tools just so they can be better at the game? Or have better overview over their squad? I get it, if you want, and know what to do, you can definitely do it and be okay with it. But this also means, that out of 100, maybe 97 will quit, before they even discover those things. Not even taking into account the patience needed, to see, if it works properly or you bought good players.

Current system for me means that I will now get some trainers, will spam transfer market for days, get a bunch of young lads hoping for talent (ex your transfer history, only 21 sales with hundreds of purchases.. a lot of try and error there), its unnecessary, unfriendly and not very intuitive. Then I have to create my own spread sheets and track their progress, or get some external software (most of the western population nowadays uses MacOS, found only one apple app and that is paid for), maybe I wasnt looking at the right places, but.. even if I know what I want to look for, I struggle to do so. After that, I will need to change those players every few weeks, I cant as you said be really emotional about it or be proud of my youth intake, as that means I will be left behind, so I will have to recycle the players. Some people like YA challenges, want to have homegrown players, want to play with best squad possible, some want to produce youngsters, but all those should be viable strategy. The only strategy that is viable, is via training players, because its the only one that generates enough money to as you said, go after them. Which forces players to do very specific and not very intuitive nor fun thing for years just so they have a chance. If you will focus on best squad possible to win your league, in three seasons you will be out of business due to wages and poor fanbase not being able to keep up with your expenses. You cant do anything else other than train and recycle transfer market.

The absolute necessity should not be that I have to look up information, spend extra time and download and set up specific browser just so I can play with some sense of efficiency.

You got literally carried by very specific player, who bought your first two youngsters, who have not progressed since, which enabled you to recycle that money into talented players which you sold next. I would call that more of a luck than a strategy that will carry on to everyone who does it. Thats not taking anything away from you, but just so you have maybe a different POV.

Also, the fact that the community itself needs to develop software and spam players with mentoring just so there is any kind of chance for them to progress is crazy. I remember when I was part of a mentoring team. Every week we would check every single registered player in our country and in a team of several mentors we would contact them, give them the tools, the information, help them with any questions they may have had. It was very time consuming, plain and simple, unnecessary. Why isn't this part of the game? Why isn't there a viable tutorial? Why most of the really needed things are not part of the game? Why the evolution of the team you start with have not changed since day 1? As Borkos stated, the game is very different for every user. Why isn't the value/quality of your team/money calculated based on where are you put into? How do you think new player feels when he gets into Poland league system? Do you think its fun for them, when they have in their league people being stuck there for several years but with tons of money on top? Its not that you are outperforming them, they just don't care nor try anymore. But if they were indeed trying, you are no competition.

A lot of managers will come on the website and will have difficulties to spend the energy in the game and will quit within the first hour
I would say this part of your message is exactly what is Sokkers fault. The player quits, because he gets on, sets his squad, sees hes shit, has no money so cant do whack, have no idea how to operate with tactic so just leaves it there, then realizes after some digging that he has a match in 5 days, logs off and forgets about the game as there was nothing to do apart from reading forum for him to do. How is that not the games fault and faulty design? Everyone starts to play new game with the search of fun. No one goes on with the intent with "I cant wait to spend next year doing nothing but checking in once a week if my players got good training session in.", I have no idea what kind of planet you live on if you think this is the mindset anyone who registers does indeed have.

Plus, from reading your messages, I would bet you are as-well a returnee, as it would be weir for someone who is there few months to be talking about what others were saying 12 years ago. So you had an idea what to do, you knew what will happen when you got in and you had plan in mind. Maybe you even had old friends who helped you out. How is your progress in any shape of form comparable to anyone who starts this game? They have the same tools? Yes, with no way of how or why to operate them. Not really the same.